[OpenWireless Tech] Does using VPN services or Tor increase risk of scrutiny

["Andy Green (林安廸)"]

On 11/19/12 06:21, the mail apparently from Guy Jarvis included:

> In terms of know who is doing what, that data is contained/logged at the
> VPN concentrator/server if the spooks wish to know.

The "other half" of the VPN idea is to promote a vpn server being 
already built into consumer APs.  This is already done in openWRT-type 
alternate firmware: there's no technical hurdle.

Then most people would use the roaming "VPN-only" access to simply 
connect back to their own home AP and go out on the internet from there 
using their own IP for free.  The "first hop" details about the roaming 
AP will either not be logged or logged by the user's equipment only.

"Anonymity" is a different and much tougher issue.  Most people, most of 
the time, don't need anonymity, they will be content with the same 
traceability level as if they were at home on their own connection.  If 
they want additional proxying, whatever solution they use at home will 
work roaming with the VPN technique.  The only additional information 
leakage is the roaming AP operator can see his users' home IPs.

> VPN is a useful means to provide public internet access using a freely
> open wireless access infrastructure.

Right... it solves snooping at the AP or other AP users through 
individual VPN link crypto, and it solves potential AP owner liability. 
  These seem to be the fundamental blockers for allowing casual use by 
the public of private APs.

Community wireless is great but it needs mindshare and provisioning, 
where that exists or is possible of course it should be encouraged.

But again it's different, if the next generation of APs had these 
capabilities out of the box (in spite of telco investment in the 
paid-for roaming WLAN ripoffs leading to resistance...) there would be 
no provisioning issue and no locality for the efforts either, they would 
pop up gloablly in increasing numbers an with a density that reflected 
how busy the area was.

> Of course an open local access network can also be used to transport
> information locally and never hit the "public internet" at all and this
> is an area of community location-based broadband that has barely been
> touched upon in terms of practical network deployments as yet.

Right but it's a separate issue with its own advantages an dangers for 
the AP operator.  If the operator offered that mode, the AP is locally 
serving up content, which is a different animal.  I agree it's a legit 
area to discuss but not to confuse with the VPN scheme.

-Andy

> On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 9:46 PM, Natanael <natanael.l at gmail.com
> <mailto:natanael.l at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     How do they know it's you?
>
>     If the router uses WPA2 or equavilent, they can't even see which
>     client it is that is using that VPN (unless they use timing
>     attacks!) if they sniff the radio traffic.
>
>     (Timing attacks require analysis of the amount of traffic sent and
>     received + timestamps from the clients and routers (from radio
>     sniffing), and comparing that with data from the ISP:s of either the
>     routers or the VPN:s or routers in this path (where they'd use
>     traceroutes in both directions). I believe it's simply too hard and
>     requires too much resources to be done IRL, unless maybe NSA would
>     get involved. But the "return of investment" is likely absurdly low,
>     so I assume it will never ever happen as other attacks are cheaper
>     and much more likely.)
>
>
>
>     On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 10:38 PM, Java Nut <javanut20 at hotmail.com
>     <mailto:javanut20 at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>         As I think about whether one can or would want to use VPNs or
>         tor for an open wifi to insulate network operators from what
>         wifi users do, I also wonder, Does the use of VPNs known to be
>         good about privacy (such as those favored by pirates) or the use
>         of tor increase government scrutiny of ones Internet activity in
>         the USA?  I have seen news stories of government eavesdropping
>         on phone and internet activity, and what do they do when they
>         find VPNs and tor?
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