[OpenWireless Tech] A small question about tracking

Tue Nov 6 04:07:12 PST 2012

Besides the point. How do we otherwise create a global standardized system?
Den 6 nov 2012 13:02 skrev "Todd" <Todd at chiwifi.net>:

>  Typical end user does not care if the service they are using is not open.
>
>
> On 11/06/2012 06:00 AM, Natanael wrote:
>
> Where are the commercial offerings that provide open source standardized
> platforms for automatic detection of and connection to free WiFi that also
> provides freedom of liability for the router owner?
>
> IIRC, Fon also uses VPN:s/tunnels for the secondary users that connect.
> But the platform ain't open, right?
> Den 6 nov 2012 12:55 skrev "Todd" <Todd at chiwifi.net>:
>
>> How is what you mentioned any different then already existing projects,
>> like fon, which btw also does not use VPNs.
>>
>> So far you have suggested that this become massive enough to include
>> hardware manufactures and for it to be world-wide but at the same time
>> said these systems would not scale to city sizes.
>>
>> Most importantly however is the fact that it makes no effort what so
>> ever to change any portion of the existing internet, only the way in
>> which people connect to it. It also does not it in any way impact
>> internet freedoms, instead it just shuffles around responsibility.
>>
>> So I ask again, why should anyone give a crap if all you are doing is
>> trying to copy already existing and mature commercial offerings, and
>> making it more complicated and slow with throwing on some VPN crap ?
>>
>>
>> On 11/06/2012 05:46 AM, "Andy Green (林安廸)" wrote:
>> > On 11/06/12 19:37, the mail apparently from Todd included:
>> >
>> >> Why should anyone feel responsible for giving anyone else internet,
>> when
>> >> they are paying for out of their own pocket for it?
>> >> What do they get in return ?
>> >
>> > Well, the VPN thing is to try to reduce the "responsibility" to zero
>> > and eliminate that downside.
>> >
>> > They can throttle the leechers how they like as well, and / or QoS
>> > them down so the real user never even notices them.
>> >
>> > I guess it boils down to if they contribute, and there's a useful
>> > critical mass, then they are free to "be the leecher" when they need
>> > it.  For example, if you visit other countries, roaming rates make it
>> > insane to casually use Internet on your SIM.
>> >
>> > This way, you might get a reasonable facsimile of continuous internet
>> > connection for receiving email etc as you walk around a city.  Or if
>> > you are stuck in a hotel with expensive Internet, if there are other
>> > APs nearby you will be able to get by.
>> >
>> > Actually those are quite nice benefits that could appear worldwide if
>> > this scheme took off.  For that, it would be ideal if AP manufacturers
>> > included the support and enabled it by default alongside the regular
>> > WPA network so the AP owner's own traffic remains safe.
>> >
>> > And again the other part is that APs should be ready to be the VPN
>> > server for the owner when he is roaming.
>> >
>> > -Andy
>> >
>> >>> On 11/06/12 19:29, the mail apparently from Todd included:
>> >>>> On 11/06/2012 05:20 AM, "Andy Green (林安廸)" wrote:
>> >>>>> On 11/06/12 18:53, the mail apparently from Christian Huldt
>> included:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> 2012-11-06 kl. 11:10 skrev Todd:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> One thing note here is, most of the responses have been solely
>> >>>>>>> about
>> >>>>>>> "protecting the router owner" via throwing on varying levels of
>> >>>>>>> VPN. As
>> >>>>>>> far as I can tell,  the average member of this list is more
>> worried
>> >>>>>>> about their continued ability to pirate then providing ubiquitous
>> >>>>>>> wifi
>> >>>>>>> which is very disheartening.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I beg to disagree, IMHO this is about being able to convince your
>> >>>>>> neighbor that
>> >>>>>> he/she can also share wifi without any immediate risks - which
>> there
>> >>>>>> are, at least in Germany.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Exactly, same in UK.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Since the VPN story includes trying to get the client's home AP as
>> >>>>> the
>> >>>>> server, going out on the internet with the IP in the client's name,
>> >>>>> this has nothing whatsoever to do with 'piracy'.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> You can see for yourself that the very few open personal APs left
>> >>>>> seem
>> >>>>> to mainly be so by accident (SSID of "Netgear", etc), at least
>> >>>>> where I
>> >>>>> live and travel your average router owner "knows" that unencrypted
>> is
>> >>>>> dangerous even if he couldn't explain it in terms of his traffic
>> >>>>> being
>> >>>>> sniffable, he could tell you it's dangerous due to possibility of
>> >>>>> other people exploiting it to his detriment.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> To get people to make the other decision, to offer anonymous
>> >>>>> access on
>> >>>>> their IP again, there has to be a story that definitively counters
>> >>>>> this perception, a reason why something changed and it is now safe
>> to
>> >>>>> do so, and we might see (VPN-only) open APs become normal again.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The only story I know that would convince me is VPN-only, since it
>> >>>>> directly counters the "but the bad guy might use my IP" concern.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> -Andy
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The "bad guy might use my IP" argument is completely irrelevant if
>> the
>> >>>> IPs are not being assigned by the large ISP (IE.. comcast, att,
>> >>>> verizon,
>> >>>> etc..)
>> >>>
>> >>> I am not sure what scenario you are imagining, but the guys on the
>> >>> ground with compatible APs all around are exactly customers of these
>> >>> kind of ISPs.  If you look at your scan list you will likely see loads
>> >>> of WPA-protected private APs right now.
>> >>>
>> >>> If most of those normal people opened their APs for VPN-only, because
>> >>> it was built-in to their APs, you could pretty much bank on getting
>> >>> service whereever there was habitation, without any special
>> >>> provisioning activity.
>> >>>
>> >>> They already power their AP, have a live internet connection, are
>> >>> close by, etc...
>> >>>
>> >>> -Andy
>> >>>
>> >>
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>> >
>>
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